This is the full conversation with Brenna Davis, CEO of Organically Grown Company and author of Leading Through Fire.
We explore steward ownership, perpetual purpose trusts, resilient leadership and the deeper question of what businesses are ultimately designed to serve.
[00:00:00.00] - Brenna Davis
It was so beautiful. And I just remember the moss and I remember the huckleberries and just all the amazing nature that was there in the forest. And it was like a friend to me. It really was. And the forest was gone. And I asked my mom, you know, why, what, what, what happened? Why was this? Because I was just devastated. And my mother said, well, honey, that’s just how business is done. I just remember thinking that it had to be better than that. Like there had to be a better way to build a house. There had to be a better way. It kind of led me on a quest to find out, like, how businesses make the decisions they make. And initially, I really thought that meant just working within existing, you know, business structures. And that’s what I did for many, many, many years. Today, I’m at Organically Grown Company, which is the nation’s largest independent organic produce distributor. I went from a co-op, a cooperative, which is an alternative business model, to a perpetual purpose trust-owned company. Which is an emerging model that is getting more and more popular. In essence, the business exists to serve that purpose and to fund it.
[00:01:05.09] - Brenna Davis
And so the profits that you make flow down into advancing that purpose and is a great option as we hit the silver tsunami that we’re hitting right now in the business world where folks are aging out and wanting to transition but still preserve their mission. And for me as a CEO, That mission and that purpose is really what drives me. So it’s frankly at the heart of the way I lead my— I run my life, the way I live my life, the way I lead. You know, we always have to balance actually making a profit and running a good fundamental business with our purpose. I’m also really fascinated with bees. I’ve always loved bees and just how they share resources and how they share roles. We really worked hard to integrate it into kind of the way we approach our communication. The sharing of resources and information is what makes systems more resilient. As leaders, we’re expected to show up every single day, still be inspirational, still be supportive, still be the best— our best self every single day that we walk through that door or sit down to our desk. And the pressure of it is a lot.
[00:02:13.12] - Brenna Davis
Really, the idea is, as leaders, building the resilience within ourselves so that can flow out to our organization. You know, an organization shouldn’t just rely on their CEO or their executive, that developing the bench strength of the leaders around you and developing the leadership all the way through the ranks. You know, we’ve worked really hard to start to do more work with our leadership at every level, you know, moving down even into the supervisor level to invest in them so that it’s not just relying on one person, so that we are a community of leaders supporting each other. It’s not just the person person that theoretically people say is at the top, but it’s, it’s the whole suite of leaders within an organization that really make things happen. And as a CEO, my job is to articulate the vision, but also clear the way so that the work can happen. Courage isn’t the absence of fear. It’s walking through the fear.
[00:03:07.09] - Bhavesh Naik
This is The Business Philosopher Within You podcast. I’m your host, Bhavesh Naik. A recurring idea on this podcast is that great leaders don’t just manage organizations. They design systems that allow people and institutions to thrive over time. But if organizations are systems, a deeper question emerges. What makes some organizations resilient while others collapse under pressure? And what role does leadership play in building institutions that can endure for generations? To explore these questions, I’ve invited a very special guest to join us. Brenna Davis is the CEO of organically grown company, the nation’s largest independent organic produce distributor. She’s also the author of Leading Through Fire: Resilient Leadership for People, Planet, and the Future. An environmental scientist turned CEO, Brenna brings a systems perspective to business leadership. Her career spans executive roles across 7 industries and companies ranging from $20 million family businesses to $200 billion global enterprises. Today, she leads one of the most prominent examples of trust-based ownership in the United States. I am pleased to have you on this podcast, Brenna.
[00:04:22.06] - Brenna Davis
Oh, thanks for having me, Bhavesh. Really nice to see you and excited to be on this podcast with you.
[00:04:28.12] - Bhavesh Naik
Yeah, thank you for being here. And a special shout out to you, our listener. Hey, listen, we’re not just a podcast. We are a movement and you are the business philosopher. We learn from each other and grow with each other. Please remember to like, subscribe, follow, share, and comment. But most important, ask and answer questions. Thank you for tuning in. So Brenna, take us back. Now, your book, Leading Through Fire, and I sampled it a little bit. I haven’t read the whole thing because I have a reputation of ruining surprises and drop spoilers. So I read just a very small portion of it. But it’s, uh, you talk about growing up in the Pacific Northwest. And as a child, you’re probably about 5 years old, and you are describing this breathtaking moment to me where you’re watching an ecological disaster. And your mom is there. And you ask a question to your mom. Could you take us back to that moment? And you will probably do a much better job, definitely do a much better job describing this moment than I can. So please take us back and tell us what’s happening and what’s the question you ask to your mom.
[00:05:50.07] - Brenna Davis
Yes, I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, spent, you know, kids that grew up in the Pacific Northwest spent a lot of time in the forest and spending time in nature. I was raised, it was in the ‘80s when you could kind of be set free and be feral and run through the woods. And I spent a lot of time on Camino Island, uh, with my grandmother at her place. And, um, you know, I used to play in the woods across the street. My, my, my cousins and I would all be over there, um, running through the woods, looking at the trees, uh, you know, the, the ravens, the tadpoles. Um, there was so much nature there. It was so beautiful. And I just remember the moss and I remember the huckleberries and just all the amazing nature that was there. In the forest. And it was like a friend to me. It really was. When I was a kid, it was like a magical universe and a really incredible ecosystem, although I didn’t have the words for it at that point in time in my life.
[00:06:47.20] - Bhavesh Naik
Sure.
[00:06:48.12] - Brenna Davis
And I arrived after leaving my grandmother’s place and coming back after a few weeks, and the forest was gone. It was completely destroyed. All that were left was a tangle of roots. And I remember the dirt, none of the plants were there. It was just clear cut. And I asked my mom, you know, why, what, what, what happened? Why was this? Because I was just devastated. And my mother said, well, honey, that’s just how business is done. They’re developing that land and they’re going to build houses on it. And I just remember thinking, and I was just thought that it had to be better than that. Like there had to be a better way to build a house. There had to be a better way. Just for things to happen as a kid. And, you know, when you’re that young, you’re idealistic and you just think, yeah, it will be so easy. But it kind of led me on a quest to find out like how businesses make the decisions they make. And it led me on a journey to become an environmental scientist, you know, majoring— there was, there was no sustainability majors back then.
[00:07:52.13] - Brenna Davis
So I had to hack my degree and really to really be able to learn about business and science. So that’s kind of what led me to that point in my life. And it’s really been a thread throughout my career is just this question like, why do businesses make the decisions they do?
[00:08:13.02] - Bhavesh Naik
Yeah, yeah. And you talk about purpose in the book. And I think that this is probably the purpose is the first thing that you talk about. And I think kind of lead with that. That’s my impression. And it seems like there’s some inklings of the purpose right in that moment. You’re 5-year-old, so you probably are not— I don’t know if I— you know, the psychologists say that we don’t form our cognitive mind until a bit later, like 6 years or something like that. So you’re witnessing this and it sparks something. And I think you end up calling it a purpose. Is that correct? Or am I— do I have that wrong?
[00:08:48.08] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, it did sort of become a purpose. My purpose really was how do we protect this beauty, this natural beauty that’s in the world. And as I learned more as an environmental scientist about ecosystems and how they’re all connected and how human beings ourselves are dependent on these natural systems to exist, I realized that really my purpose was both to help people survive, help people have healthy lives, clean air, clean water, healthy food to eat, but also to help all the species also survive. And built into that, as I learned more and more, is this concept of environmental justice and how do we help make all of that access more equitable for everyone. So these are all kind of been one big sort of purpose for me is finding a way to preserve these things, to preserve this beauty, preserve these resources in a way where it benefits all. And that’s really led me through my career. It led me, like you said, through 7 different industries. I did my internship when I was in college in an oil refinery because I really wanted to dive into how what I perceived to be one of the most impactful industries, how they made decisions.
[00:10:11.17] - Brenna Davis
And I learned a lot about that. One of the things I learned is coming from my side of the Washington state, which is more liberal and coming from a family that was more liberal, the words that I used might be environmentalism. The words that someone else might use that worked in a refinery might be conservation or words that I— the thing that motivated me might be to enjoy the beauty of the forest and hike through it. The thing that might motivate another would be hunting a duck or going duck hunting or fishing. So we shared a lot of the same love of nature, we just had different words that we were using. And so that was one of the more profound things I learned. And I’ve found that in my career, I think that most people care about nature. I think that most people care about the environment, but kind of the words we use have gotten in the way. So moving on from the refinery, I did a lot of consulting in the energy sector, including in oil and gas, big multinationals, helping them do key performance indicator roll-ups and environmental management systems work and sustainability work, helping them to have a lower impact on their communities.
[00:11:28.12] - Brenna Davis
And then worked in a, in a utility doing a similar thing, which for, for about 10 years. And ultimately, I found my passion for food working at a, in a health system in Seattle. Helping them to do all sorts of things because running a healthcare system is like running a small town. It’s a 24/7 operation and a million meals served every year. But really my question that I asked was, how can we make these meals more healthy for people and better for the planet? And so work to transition those, that food into Marine Stewardship Council certified seafood and organic food and foods that would help to support people’s health more effectively. And then from there I went to the nation’s largest food co-op working with the team there, leading all of their quality standards, making the—
[00:12:21.01] - Bhavesh Naik
Which is today, right? That’s today.
[00:12:23.06] - Brenna Davis
Not quite.
[00:12:23.19] - Bhavesh Naik
This is before. Okay.
[00:12:24.11] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, yeah. I was on the executive—
[00:12:25.23] - Bhavesh Naik
Go ahead.
[00:12:26.09] - Brenna Davis
Sorry. Yeah. Community Markets, which is the nation’s largest food co-op. It’s 16 stores and about, I think it’s about 1,400 employees now, 1,500. Helping them do a similar thing, reducing the impact, making sure that we had healthy food in our system. And, and today I’m at Organically Grown Company, which is the nation’s largest independent organic produce distributor. Yeah. Which I know we’ll talk about this. I went from a co-op, a cooperative, which is an alternative business model, to a perpetual purpose trust-owned company. —which is an emerging model that is getting more and more popular. And it’s exciting to be a part of that.
[00:13:13.14] - Bhavesh Naik
There are so many threads that we can follow in there. And let’s see if we can do justice to your career and all the things that you’ve done. You talked about going into the belly of the beast, in my terms, going to the oil and gas industry and working there. And what I— the word that popped in my head is perspective. It’s going in and looking at it from their perspective. So you said something very important that we all care about the environment. We all care about the ecology. We want our planet and our world to be a better place and a good place for all of us to live and thrive. And you didn’t choose to become an environmental activist. You didn’t go into government institutions and choose to be a bureaucrat. You know, those are all wonderful professions. You chose to take more of the business angle to things, right? It seems like, you know, you kind of grew into business side of things and leadership. So you grew into a leadership role, right? And I think today you probably call it stewardship more than the leadership. Is there a reason why that side kind of attracted you more than going the other routes?
[00:14:34.03] - Brenna Davis
Yes, I’ve always thought that it made more sense to work, for me, to work within a system to make change for, of the system. And I thought about it a lot when I was in college. I was not popular because I had this internship and all my colleagues were doing really cool work like counting frogs or measuring limbic systems or doing a lot of different things. But for me, I thought they have an important place in the ecosystem of the environmental movement, which is understanding the science. And then there’s the people that are kind of in the activist movement and they have an important role, which is to push society forward. But I always thought for me that if I could understand the system as much as possible, it’s interesting reflecting on this because it’s kind of a little bit of a scientist view, but if I can understand the system as much as possible, then I can more most effectively help it to do a better job. And initially, I really thought that meant just working within existing, you know, business structures. And that’s what I did for many, many, many years. And I do think that you can make a difference within existing business structures.
[00:15:51.12] - Brenna Davis
I’ve seen businesses that have done really great things. You know, we can think of so many businesses that have done great things. And I also think that when, you know, the challenges happen, when, you know, sales dive or there’s some kind of crisis, the trade-off that I’ve seen is always, quite often, I should say, not always, quite often, that they will choose to disinvest in sustainability initiatives or disinvest in the community or disinvest in other things. And so these alternative structures help to preserve that mission and that purpose even in times of challenge.
[00:16:31.23] - Bhavesh Naik
And that brings us to this idea. I think, you know, you talked about PPT, Perpetual Purpose Trust. Did I say that right?
[00:16:39.23] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, you did. Yep.
[00:16:42.17] - Bhavesh Naik
Quite a mouthful, but every single word of those three, I was thinking about those three words and each one of them makes sense because it’s perpetual, meaning that it’s self-sustaining, it goes on beyond generations, right? It’s perpetual. And it has purpose is in there and then trust. So did you— so this is a new thing. And I think before that you were with a co-op. Right? Yes. So can you talk about PPT a little bit? And how— yeah, and how that evolved in your psyche and, you know, how you came upon it? And why did that appeal to you? You know, against a co-op, or now we also talk about B Corporation. I just had a— I just released an episode about someone who’s running a B Corp. So PPT, yeah, take us behind the scenes a little bit.
[00:17:33.14] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, so people, I think, generally understand cooperatives, that people buy in and own the cooperative. And there’s so many applications of them from utilities, all the way to food co-ops, to, you know, farmer co-ops. It’s amazing what they’re doing, cooperative movement. The Perpetual Purpose Trust movement is centered around this idea of putting your business into a trust that exist to serve a purpose in perpetuity. So, OGC, Organically Grown Company, moved into a perpetual purpose trust in 2018. And there were very few companies that had done that at that time. Like it was so unheard of. We had to hunt down, we had to hunt down a lawyer that would help us. And it was hard to get financing to do it and all these other things. But in the past, perpetual purpose trusts were largely applied to Things like a cemetery where it has to exist for a purpose over a long time. So it would be put in a trust to do that. Or like if you had a pet, like a long-living pet, like a parrot. Yeah. Uh, you could create a trust for your parrot so that it would be taken care of over the long term.
[00:18:44.17] - Brenna Davis
It was more novel to be used, um, to put a business into it, but in essence, the business exists to serve that purpose and to fund it. Yeah. And so the profits that you make flow down into advancing that purpose. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we transitioned into it in 2018, and since then we’re close to 100 businesses that have also transitioned, including Patagonia, which is really exciting. Um, yeah. And so the movement is growing. I’m on the board of a new organization called the Purpose Trust Ownership Network. Right. Which, um, just had our first conference, uh, uh-huh. Uh-huh. Awesome. In Austin, and it sold out. Yeah. Uh, which was really exciting. And so there’s just a growing movement around the country to embrace this model. Yeah. Um, the model itself, there are safeguards. So rather than just having a board, like a typical business that would run everything, you have a board, but also some, some roles that have oversight to make sure that you’re heading towards that purpose. And there’s a grievance process for that. So it really keeps you on course. And you’re consistently asking the question, you know, are we advancing our mission?
[00:19:53.18] - Brenna Davis
And in the case of Organically Grown Company, It is advancing organic food systems, organic agriculture. In the case of Patagonia, they’re focused on climate change and really dealing with climate change. But there are many— there’s also employee-owned trusts. So really what that is is that the purpose is to advance, to help employees and to advance employees. So it’s really a great growing movement that I think more and more business leaders are learning about. And is a great option as we hit the silver tsunami that we’re hitting right now in the business world where folks are aging out and wanting to transition, but, or to exit, but still preserve their mission. This is a great model for that.
[00:20:41.10] - Bhavesh Naik
Yeah. Yeah. And I wanna just kind of make some connections for our audience. I think OGC is the company of which you are a CEO right now. Yes. Yes.
[00:20:51.01] - Brenna Davis
Yes. I’m the CEO of Organically Grown Company.
[00:20:53.08] - Brenna Davis
That’s correct. Right. And that’s OGC and that is under PPPO. You organized it as an entity under this PPP framework, right? Yes. Okay. And what is the purpose of OGC?
[00:21:05.23] - Brenna Davis
Our purpose is to advance sustainable and organic agriculture and really to support independent and values-aligned businesses that are a part of our ecosystem, for lack of a better word.
[00:21:20.00] - Bhavesh Naik
Absolutely. Yeah, and you were actually distributing the organically growing food. Is that produce?
[00:21:25.13] - Brenna Davis
Is that correct? Yes, yes. So from the back, from the high-level purpose to the day-to-day, day-to-day work. Yes, we’re, we, we buy organic produce from growers and sell it to retailers. We have, we serve 8 states. We have about 300 employees, about 400 trucks that go up and down the West Coast. We also do logistics for kind of refrigerated cold storage logistics for companies that need to transport their goods. We’ve been around since the ‘70s. We were formed in Eugene, Oregon. And so it’s a quite, it’s a very mature business that decided to kind of move to this model. We’ve had real, we’ve had solid profitability. We’re growing. Yeah. Which is really nice. And we’re also, you know, have been really thinking a lot about how do we integrate our supply chain. And so we recently purchased a citrus ranch in Northern California. Very nice. So we’ve got a lot going on. And I think the really exciting part is just the really smart employees that we have, the coworkers that I work with. We call them coworkers. Um, our, my coworkers are just so, um, intelligent, smart, thoughtful, um, really some of the smartest people I’ve ever worked with.
[00:22:47.19] - Brenna Davis
And, um, we just, uh, we’re at it every single day, just putting that food on the table. Yeah. One, one of, one of the things that really drives us too is helping these independent, um, retailers thrive and survive. Yeah. Uh, we work with a lot of cooperatives or mom and pop owned companies. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Independent grocers. The folks that might not get the same level of service from other companies that, or other produce houses. And so we make sure that they have a really great offering so that they can compete with the big guys that, you know, that’s, it’s hard to do on a day-to-day basis. So that’s really what drives us is helping keeping the food system sort of not just homogenous, but really diverse and interesting for everybody. Absolutely right.
[00:23:36.04] - Bhavesh Naik
That seems like an exciting day-to-day and the purpose, which is kind of purpose touching the ground, right? It’s being actionalized, if that’s a word. I don’t know if that’s a word or not, but— No, I think it is actionalized.
[00:23:49.01] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, I like it. Actionalized, right?
[00:23:50.12] - Bhavesh Naik
Activated, right? And that must be exciting for you because you’re actually bringing that mission, that personal mission into an organization that’s, I’m assuming, is aligned with your personal mission. Yes. Right? Yes.
[00:24:04.01] - Brenna Davis
I mean, every day I’m excited to wake up and I’m excited to do the work. And just the product we sell is a product that helps to build a better world. And that is that it sequesters more carbon. That is organic food sequesters more carbon. It uses less energy. Organic agriculture has more drought tolerance. It’s also better for farmers. It creates a better income for them. And it, it creates a healthier farmer too, cuz they’re not exposed to all these pesticides, um, that conventional farmers have. And then also it’s better for farm workers. They’re not exposed to it. Their, their children aren’t exposed to these chemicals. So it’s, um, it’s really a great, um, uh, flywheel of, uh, a, a virtuous flywheel. Um, and every day the product we sell is, is just better, better for the planet and, and helping to improve things. Absolutely.
[00:24:57.19] - Bhavesh Naik
And the words that your mom said, that’s how businesses work, or to that effect. I don’t know if I’m saying it exactly the way she said it. Yeah, that’s true. But, and you’re running a business today. And so what’s that feel like? Do you feel like it’s the business that would be devastating the ecological system that you witnessed, or, you know, you’re more of the And I think the answer is clear, but I just kind of want to get the feeling that you feel when you run an organization like that, which is actually on purpose and mission. So what’s it like, you know, your internal experience to be running an organization that is so well aligned with your personal mission and purpose?
[00:25:41.12] - Brenna Davis
It feels very fulfilling. It feels like it’s very aligned with my values. Feels, um, feels good to show up to work every day. Feels good to talk about the work we do. I’m very proud of the work that my coworkers and I do every single day. Um, and you know, when I think on the days where I get tired or the days when I get, uh, you know, I’ve had an overloaded week or I’ve traveled too much, I, um, I, I, I, I reconnect with that. Purpose, so the reason why we’re doing it, and it gives me more fuel and I’m able to keep going. I also, I do prioritize rest too, and, and so I try to balance my life. But, um, but you know, those are, there are those times as a leader when you just feel overwhelmed, and in those times, the, the purpose and knowing that it’s making a better world, um, is, is, uh, energizing for me.
[00:26:37.12] - Bhavesh Naik
Absolutely. And PPT, who is the owner of PPT? Now we know in for-profit world, it’s the shareholders, whether it’s a public company or private company, there are people who have stake in financial stake in the company and they are the shareholders. And then you have the customers and there are the stakeholders, but there’s always this idea of who owns the company. Is PPT different in that regard a little bit?
[00:27:02.15] - Brenna Davis
Yes, it is because it’s owned by a trust. Yeah. So it sits in a trust and it’s managed by a board and it has oversight from an oversight body. In some cases it’s called a trust enforcer, but really their role is to make sure that the mission is being carried out or the purpose is being carried out. There’s never an, and in our structure we have some preferred shares that we also took on when we took on debt. They’re non-voting. Yeah. And those are, uh, yeah, we have that, but, um, but ultimately there’s never going to be an owner, um, telling us that we need to not pursue our mission in order to, to just do profit. Like, yes, it’s never going to be someone telling us, okay, you have to stop doing organic and only do conventional. Um, yeah, we, our mission is preserved within that ownership structure. —rather than sort of being at the mercy or the whim of that particular owner. And I think our founder— definitely our founders designed it that way because of their passion for the mission.
[00:28:16.05] - Bhavesh Naik
Yes. I think I’ve heard you say at one point, I don’t know if it— probably not in this conversation, but before, that the purpose is an owner or purpose is the owner.
[00:28:26.08] - Bhavesh Naik
Is that correct or? Yes. Yes. So, that’s another way of saying it. That exists in a trust and that ultimately the purpose is the owner. That’s right. Right.
[00:28:39.09] - Bhavesh Naik
Here’s a question. What if the purpose changes? You know, if a leader is running an organization and purpose is ultimate basically, right? No, we’re not gonna change the purpose no matter what, right? What if, or is there room for changing the purpose? Is there a mechanism for it? Like, you know, we have in the United States, we have the Constitution, right? You know, you can amend it or you can change it and vote on it, things like that. What happens if the purpose changes a little bit or if it evolves?
[00:29:09.00] - Bhavesh Naik
Yes, yes. How does the leader handle that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the trust is under a trust agreement that outlines the purpose. So everyone knows what that is. And we’re owned by, our trust is Sustainable Food and Farming Agricultural Trust. Is the name of it. Quite long. Yeah. So if someone in the business, like if the board or the CEO or people that were running the business decide to move away from that purpose or shift it away, then there’s a grievance process that exists so that someone could bring a grievance and there’s a mechanism to sort of bring it back to the purpose. I think if all the You know, we’ve only been doing this, I think it’s, we’re in year 8 of this really movement growing. And so, you know, we’re not at the point where we would want to change our purpose, but I would imagine that if a company decided or trust decided they wanted to change their purpose, that they would need to amend their trust agreement and then go through that whole process as a group. But it would be quite arduous and it would be quite difficult, I would imagine.
[00:30:19.12] - Brenna Davis
Yeah.
[00:30:21.14] - Bhavesh Naik
Have you been in a situation with OGC? So far, I know it’s— I realize it’s a young model and probably still experimental a little bit.
[00:30:30.06] - Bhavesh Naik
But as a leader of OGC, have you ever been in a situation when you had to say, “Mm, we’re drifting off the purpose here a little bit, so let’s bring it back in alignment.”
[00:30:40.18] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, you know, every day we talk about our purpose, and I really make an effort in our leadership meetings where we’re always reconnecting with how this, how what we’re doing could impact coworkers or how what we’re doing, you know, feedback from coworkers and reconnecting with our mission and how that would, how, how what we’re doing impacts our mission. So it’s kind of a constant conversation that we have in our business. So far, there hasn’t been a moment for me where we felt like there was a major drift from that because we’re constantly hitting that touchpoint. And for me as a CEO, that mission and that purpose is really what drives me. So it’s frankly at the heart of the way I lead my— I run my life, the way I live my life, the way I lead. So I haven’t seen it yet, although I’m sure it could be a possibility at some point. I know, you know, we always have to balance actually making a profit and being a— running a good fundamental business.
[00:31:43.05] - Brenna Davis
With our purpose. And that’s one thing that I tell folks is, um, one of the best things we can do for the Perpetual Purpose Trust movement is to run a business with solid financials, with a great balance sheet, with, um, you know, money in the bank and the ability to grow, and with growth happening in a way that’s sustainable for everyone. And we’re doing that, which is really exciting. So, um, so for us, I haven’t yet— I haven’t yet felt that. For me personally. Yes, yes, yeah.
[00:32:13.16] - Bhavesh Naik
In your book, something that kind of jumped out at me was this idea. And I don’t know where it was written. It might have been one of the testimonials that I was reading of the people who wrote testimonials right before the book. And it’s around this idea that nature is a teacher, especially when it comes to this. Nature is a great teacher. Especially in how to run organizations, resilient organizations. So nature itself is an organization. It’s an organism. It’s an organization. And there is the quality is there is fragility and it’s fragile, right? And yet that fragility is also probably its strength. I don’t know, right? Because A good ecological system will be self-sustaining, it’ll be self-perpetuating, you know, that word in your—
[00:33:07.10] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, that’s great.
[00:33:09.01] - Bhavesh Naik
Right? So, and then we have organizations that are made of people. Right? Do you draw any parallels between the ecological systems and the, you know, you said, you know, people, you know, these are our coworkers, we call them coworkers, we don’t, you know, it’s not like corporate leadership structure. Are there any parallels between the two, the ecological system and the organizational system that— Oh, yes.
[00:33:36.23] - Brenna Davis
I mean, you know, I’ve always been fascinated with kind of the parallels with nature and kind of business, you know, from the kind of mycelial network. I think a lot about the organic movement and how there’s a mycelial network in the forest or a fungal network where trees can share nutrients between each other. And I think a lot about that, um, through that lens about different movements that we’re building or different, um, ideas that we’re sharing across different organizations or in communities, or even in, in our organization of how we share information and resources between each other. Um, I’m also really fascinated with bees. I’ve always loved bees and just, um, you know, how they, um, share resources and how they share roles and, and how they work together as a community to communicate and to, um, to support each other in, you know, finding honey and— or sorry, finding flowers to make honey. How they support their young. There’s so many different pieces of nature you can look at. And sometimes I think through designing my own or designing solutions to my own problems, you know, how would the bees do this? Or how would you do this if you were in the forest?
[00:34:55.00] - Brenna Davis
Or how would, you know, how would Ants do this, you know, ants are fascinating too and kind of the way they work. So I’m often thinking through that biophilic lens. Yes. And I don’t always articulate it, so it’s interesting you’ve asked me that, but it is, I am often thinking about it.
[00:35:13.18] - Bhavesh Naik
Yes, biophilic lens, what’s that term? Could you explain that? Oh, biophilic. You also used another technical term just a while ago.
[00:35:20.19] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, oh yeah, it’s looking, it’s exactly what you’ve described, it’s using nature as a model as a model for solving problems. And there’s a whole movement around biophilic solutions and understanding and using nature to solve societal problems because so many of— so many solutions already exist in the world. And so why not dive into nature to find a solution?
[00:35:46.19] - Bhavesh Naik
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, so Could you give us an example of, you know, so going back to the purpose, right? And then you have the hive that’s around you of the people that you work with, right? Using your terminology. How do you communicate that? It’s— I know that you probably kind of express it. Is there a process where they get to buy into it? You know, there is a quote by— might be Aristotle Socrates, I forget, but I think he said, “What you express, you impress.” Whatever we talk about, we actually buy into it ourselves more and more. Is there a process where they get to have a buy-in to this purpose from their own perspective? Do you have some kind of process that you have?
[00:36:38.06] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, we’ve done a lot of thinking around how we integrate our purpose into the way we train folks, the way we communicate, the things we communicate communicate. We include it in our orientation to make sure that people understand the purpose and why we’re doing it. We made sure that we included signage and kind of little touch— visual touch points to kind of remind people of why we’re doing what we do. We have all coworker meetings where we talk about our purpose. We also do sampling and get to— people get to try different fruits and veggies. Yeah. We also share our fruits, you know, fruits and vegetables with our coworkers so that they can try things and can have, have, have like healthy, more additional healthy food to bring to their families. And then we also have something called a Hive Chat. Interesting you said that. I love it. Which is, you know, a monthly meeting when we don’t have all coworker meetings where people can come and ask any questions they have. And we talk about what’s going on in the organization. And, um, so there’s that piece. Um, and then we, you know, we have weekly, um, it’s called Buzz of the Biz, another, uh, weekly, um, business announcements that kind of highlight different purpose elements in addition to what’s happening in the business.
[00:38:02.23] - Brenna Davis
So we really worked hard to integrate it into kind of the way we approach our communication. Yeah. And always, um, always trying to touch back on the why, the, you know, why we’re there, why we’re doing what we’re doing. You know, in a warehouse, it can be the turnover on certain jobs is higher than in other professions. And so it’s something that we’re still learning about how to reach everyone because it’s challenging when you have, you know, you folks that are salespeople that might be there for a very long time. You have folks that might be, you know, stay less long in certain roles. And so, you know, working hard on retention and also how do we get the news out to newer people. And so, it’s still a work in progress. I won’t say that we’ve totally nailed it, but I will say that in our coworker surveys, more than 80% of people say they’re proud to work at OGC and they’re proud of our mission. So, it’s pretty, it’s been pretty successful, although we’re always working at it. We’re never done.
[00:39:09.11] - Bhavesh Naik
Yeah, it’s always a moving target. And it’s as it should be, right? On that point, we live in a world that’s always changing, always shifting, right? And you talk about, in your book, you talk about resilience. I think that’s one of the themes that I think, you know, you’ve addressed quite a bit, resilience. And resilient systems like ecological systems are resilient. And an organization can also be resilient. And at the same time, both of those systems are also fragile. Right? And I always wonder, and I’m just kind of thinking out loud with you. Yeah, yeah. What is it? You know, the same system, this is kind of like a paradox here, right? It’s the same system that is so fragile, also has this strength that it’s also resilient. Right? What do you think is the common thing? What is it that— what is something in there that makes the same thing that’s resilient but also fragile? Any thoughts on that?
[00:40:13.13] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, I think, you know, so much to say about that. You know, I think where I’ll start is that connection is so important, like, and, and, uh, the sharing of resources and information is what makes, um, systems more resilient. Yeah. Um, and so, so I think for me, thinking about, um, you know, my own resilience as an individual, which, um, I wrote the book Leading Through Fire, uh, resilient leadership for people who plan the future, because I wanted to support leaders in this time where we’re in the middle of this multiple crises all at once, which people are calling the polycrisis. I mean, today as we’re recording this, we have a conflict in Iran. We have, you know, immigration crackdowns that have been very hard on people, extremely hard. We have, you know, all the other crises that are layered under it, the ecological crises, societal crisis. I mean, there’s so many things that we’re holding and then as leaders, we’re expected to show up every single day, still be inspirational, still be supportive, still be the best, our best self every single day that we walk through that door or sit down to our desk.
[00:41:32.15] - Brenna Davis
And the pressure of it is a lot. I mean, everyone I know that, um, all the elder CEOs that I know have said that this is the hardest time to lead in. It’s the hardest time. We came out of COVID And we came into all these multiple crises that still weren’t resolved. Yes. And so the question for us leaders is how do we maintain our own resilience in the face of this? How do we maintain our own sort of, I would say, inner— I don’t know if the word is like a strength. Yeah, inner strength in the face of all this. And really what that is about is, making sure we’re taking care of our bodies, making sure that we’re compassionate towards ourselves and others, making sure that we’re cooperating with others and not doing what Western society often says, which is— and American society often says, which is you need to be— you’re an individual, that individualism above all else. And this is a point in time where we need each other. We need each other’s support. We need to be there for each other. So thinking about that, how do I cultivate that in my life?
[00:42:46.01] - Brenna Davis
Yeah. And in my friendships and in my professional life. And then, you know, the other pieces are around purpose. Like the purpose can help you get up every morning. The purpose can help you, whatever that might be. If your purpose is to help kids or your purpose is to help people be healthier or your purpose is to get information to people so that the world can be a more educated or whatever it is, you know, that can help you wake up every day. So really, the idea is, as leaders, building the resilience within ourselves so that can flow out to our organization. Yeah, I love it.
[00:43:25.10] - Bhavesh Naik
You brought this idea, which I think is so powerful. What you’re saying, I think, is that the system can be fragile or it can be sustaining or perpetual. It can last in perpetuity. But what makes that connection, what makes that perpetuity happen is the leadership, the right kind of leadership and all the things that you talked about in what that means, what it means to be that kind of leader, right? Would you say anything about that? Agree, disagree, feel free to disagree if I’m putting words in your mouth. But it’s leadership or stewardship or some role that you play where you take care of your own resiliency. And you bring it to the world. I don’t know what the term is for that.
[00:44:07.23] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I’ve been hearing lately that there’s record CEO turnover right now, that the average time of CEO turnover is down to less than 4 years. And, you know, that’s some new data. That’s huge. Did you hear that? That’s huge. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s huge data. It’s like a record level of turnover. And, you know, boards, when they’re thinking about from a governance perspective about retaining CEOs, like, it’s pretty critical to think about how is that individual as a human being, as a human being that is being a leader, you know, supporting, you know, supporting themselves and how resilient is that person and how can we support that person in their resilience. Yeah, um, I, I, I think that, you know, an organization shouldn’t just rely on their CEO or their executive, that developing the bench strength of the leaders around you and developing the leadership all the way through the ranks— because, um, I’ve always thought that, um, I agreed with something one of my mentors said, which was, you know, everyone’s a leader. If someone is looking up to you, then you are a leader, whether that’s your, your little sister.
[00:45:23.23] - Brenna Davis
Well, that’s your— yes, you know, you’re, you’re, uh, the guy in grocery store that sees you, whatever, then you’re a leader. So I’ve always, um, you know, we’ve worked really hard to start to do more work with our leadership at every level, um, you know, moving down even into the supervisor level to invest in them, um, so that it’s not just relying on one person, so that we are a community of leaders supporting each other, that if there’s a challenge, then you can pick up the phone and you can call someone and there’s someone on the other line, or you can text someone, hey, this challenge is happening. What are you doing right now with that? And so just building those connections between the leaders too has been really critical for us. So I think it’s not just the person that theoretically people say is at the top, but it’s the whole suite of leaders within an organization that really make things happen. And as a CEO, my job is to— articulate the vision, but also clear the way so that the work can happen.
[00:46:26.01] - Bhavesh Naik
Right. Clear the way. Yes, absolutely. Yes. So the whole hive of leaders, right? Yeah, the hive of leaders. And that’s what makes it resilient. Yes, that’s right.
[00:46:39.14] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, that’s interesting. Yes, because, you know, that’s exactly the model that bees follow.
[00:46:44.06] - Bhavesh Naik
Yep. If you can hold up your book. Oh, sure. Do you have it in front of you? Yeah. Here’s the book. There you go, yeah. It’s probably flipped, we’ll see, but for our audience, we’ll flip it so that they can read it. Does that come from experience, leading through fire?
[00:47:00.01] - Brenna Davis
Yes, it sure does, it does, absolutely. You led through fire. I think you and I talked earlier, one of the things about working on environmental issues is that your work is never done. It’s not like you are a bricklayer or you built a house where you can see at the end of the day, you know, the house is built and you, you know, I guess mission accomplished, I did it. It’s something that’s really a long haul and some might say, and it can feel like a lost cause at times, like working on climate, climate issues. There’s been so many times where I would just grieve because we didn’t make it as far as I wanted to. Or right now, you know, we’re above 1.5 degrees Celsius in terms of global warming on the planet. We haven’t, we haven’t kept it below levels that are going to, um, really impact future generations. Um, but, uh, working on those causes gave me a lot of insight in how to keep going, you know, which is, uh, to really focus on healing yourself and to focus on healing, um, and building that resilience within yourself so that you can continue on in the movement And so many folks that work on social issues or environmental issues or issues that are long-haul issues, sometimes we will just burn out.
[00:48:24.05] - Brenna Davis
And I found a parallel between that and being a CEO. And when, you know, when I saw the world kind of shifting earlier last year or late last year, I kind of locked myself in a room and tried to write down everything I could as fast as I could to try to get what I know about how to stay resilient out to others leader. So really, it’s, it’s a love letter to them. It’s, it’s a, um, and I wrote it so that you can, um, I like to read in the morning, so I wrote it, uh, so that it’s— each chapter is very easy to read, um, over a cup of coffee. So it’s not a, uh, you know, it’s not a scientific tome, it’s not a, uh, you know, something that’s really hard to, to, to get through. It’s an easy read, and at the end of each chapter, there’s some clear takeaways that you can apply that day, uh, for to improve your leadership. So it’s meant to be, it’s written for other executives.
[00:49:24.04] - Bhavesh Naik
Yeah, it’s a love letter to them, as you said. Yes. And I love the framing. Walking Through Fire. We talk about one thing that we talk about on this podcast a lot is just kind of internal change that we all go through. And leaders who lead, ultimately, we had a writer, another author, Tobe Folarin, and he said something so beautiful. He said that As a writer, and I think this applies to any creation, if you’re a business owner or painter or what have you, your creation at one point as you’re creating it is going to call out to you and challenge you and say, “You need to grow to be able to do justice to me.” Yeah. Right? It forces you to grow and expand and self-develop. You know, Growing resilience and growing in many different ways. So, has there been a moment— and when we talk about what I call the dark night of the soul moment, it doesn’t have to be so dark all the time, but has there been a moment that was like a defining moment where you thought that it was like the bottom? That, you know, okay, this is a lost cause.
[00:50:31.13] - Bhavesh Naik
I’m not going to come out of this. It could be career, it could be business, It could be personal setback, anything like that that you can talk about from your experience, from your career life.
[00:50:44.15] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, you know, I did have a moment kind of mid-career when I considered shifting what I was doing. I just remember feeling like I kept hitting my head up against the wall in this organization I was working at. Like, they were kind of, I felt like, giving lip service to it. I felt like, you know, the work I was trying to do, which was to kind of improve the sustainability of the company, wasn’t well valued. And they sort of let me do it, but they weren’t really bought into it. And I was running a green team, which is kind of like the sustainability team. And I just remember the executives— there’s one executive that seemed interested. And I had a situation where, you know, the CEO wasn’t very responsive and in fact a little dismissive. I would— not a little, a lot dismissive. Um, and I considered quitting. Um, uh, I considered going into another field and maybe just doing environment, you know, environmental work somewhere, or not working in the business world because it just seems so, um, not valued. Um, but I kept going. I, I realized that this is really what I wanted to do after a long contemplative process.
[00:51:56.15] - Brenna Davis
I think it took me 6 months to kind of really, um, really recover from it. And, um, I promised myself, because I read in the Harvard Business Review that, um, women don’t apply for jobs unless they have 80% of the qualifications, but men will apply if they have something like 30. And so I promised myself I would apply after reading that to my dream job, right? Um, no matter what, if I thought the qualifications— so I applied to a dream job and I got it. And that was a defining moment. Like, I had so much freedom in the other job. I was respected for my, um, what I shared, and I had the courage really to apply for it, which for women sometimes takes more. But ladies, remember this, this, this, this, this thing, which is that men will apply for 80% when they— when men will apply with 30% of the qualifications, women wait until we have 80. So always put your hat in the ring, ladies. I’ll just say that. Um, there you go. But I got this great job, so inspiring, and ended up working, um, multinationally. I ended up like at the Paris Climate Talks.
[00:52:58.01] - Brenna Davis
I did such incredible work at the White House twice. I ended up on a panel, um, after doing really great work on climate with Vice President Gore. I just had these incredible experiences. And so, you know, that dark night of the soul sort of turned into something like it just blossomed, I guess. Wow. And I will say too that later I got some, I heard someone talking about the work that I did years ago and that they were, they had started using it and were still using it in the organization. So what I didn’t see back then was that the work I was doing was really important, even if people didn’t value it, and that today it lives on in that organization 20 years later. So, so I think sometimes we don’t see all of our impact in the moment, or we’re— maybe we’re ahead of the curve, ahead of the times. Yeah. Um, but having, having courage to try something different and also having the courage to kind of keep going and to do what you’re doing, uh, also was is a good thing. And remember, like, courage isn’t the absence of fear, it’s walking through the fear.
[00:54:08.19] - Bhavesh Naik
I love it. Yeah.
[00:54:10.06] - Brenna Davis
Courage isn’t the absence of fear, but it’s walking through it, walking through fear. Yes. Courage. Yeah. I love it.
[00:54:18.09] - Brenna Davis
Yes. So it doesn’t mean I wasn’t afraid when I clicked that button. In fact, I had a little glass of wine and then I clicked the button to submit that application. But, you know, Yeah. But I was able to walk through it. And it was the same thing when I was asked to go on morning television one time, and I’m an introvert, like, just walking through it.
[00:54:39.19] - Bhavesh Naik
Yeah. Yes. And, you know, if that’s not a definition of resilience, I don’t know what that is. Because, you know, you hit your, you know, the dark night of the soul moment, and you come out of it with a success story. So that’s resilience. That’s resilience defined in my view. What do you think the future holds for us 20, 30 years down the road? You know, we are in a very strange place right now. And are you optimistic? I suppose we all have to be, but— and, you know, what’s your take on it? Where do you think we’re going overall as a humanity, as a nation, you know, as a civilization.
[00:55:24.12] - Brenna Davis
You know, I, I have a— we’ve been through a really rough period where I’ve seen things happen in this country that are not aligned with my values, and where, um, I— things have gotten a lot more challenging than I would ever have guessed in my lifetime. Um, and I, I do— one of flickers of hope is that I’m seeing that people aren’t agreeing with it. I’m seeing that the majority of people are not happy with how the direction that things are heading right now. And so I, I do have hope that things are going to shift, and I do have hope that ultimately we’re going to come out of this with kind of a new sense or renewed sense of commitment commitment to other people, commitment to human rights. And I think in the future, it’s gonna be challenging for us. I mean, if you look at the science in terms of climate change, we’re gonna get more severe storms, we’re gonna, you know, weather patterns are gonna shift and all of it. But one of the things is that I have a lot of hope because I have hope in human resilience. I have hope in the creativity of human beings that, We’re going to need to develop these skills to be adaptive, to be flexible, to be nimble.
[00:56:49.23] - Brenna Davis
And, you know, we’re seeing movement in the produce world of people growing, moving their production. Really? I mean, we’re— yep, we’re already seeing that. There’s already been climate migration that’s happening globally, and there are people migrating, climate migration happening in the US too. So all of this is happening right now in real time. Um, but I think I just, I have hope in the, like I said, the creativity of human beings and the adaptation, um, that, that we’re going to have to do, um, and that we already do. And I, I do think that the majority of people are, are decent and are, um, loving and care about each other. And so, um, yeah, I have confidence, you know, maybe it comes from working on kind of both sides of the spectrum in the refinery, or maybe it comes from being exposed to all sorts of people with different perspectives and having respect for them. But I do think that we’re going to come out of this better. It’s going to be tough.
[00:57:48.12] - Brenna Davis
It’s going to be tough. And we’re going to come out of this better.
[00:57:51.19] - Brenna Davis
Yes. And it’s like that dark night of the soul moment, right? Maybe this is our collective dark night of the soul moment. And we’ll find, we’ll dive deep within our own souls and collective soul, singular, and find solutions that move us forward as a humanity and as a civilization.
[00:58:14.18] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, and we’re making exponential improvements in the energy world right now. And some people are saying, well, you know, obviously AI is having huge implications on society and shifting how we do work, shifting the type of work we do, shifting all sorts of elements of of society. And, um, it’s also shifting the energy that we have and the amount of energy that we’ll be able to produce. And I think shifting— it’s driving, um, the requirement that we will produce more energy, and that is leading to more clean energy innovation. So I’m really confident that, you know, right now we’re, we’re facing— as we record this, we’re facing kind of a fuel challenge as the Strait of Hormuz is closed down to a trickle, and that’s 20% of the world’s petroleum coming through plays. Um, and so I think, you know, having that experience again as a society may, may drive us towards more of that clean energy. So we had kind of a double, double, double, double influence here, which is, you know, needing more energy for AI, which largely has been the clean energy sphere, and then also this piece around electrification, um, of transportation.
[00:59:25.11] - Brenna Davis
So I’m hoping, um, You know, that we get through this tough period and then that’s how we’ll emerge. Yes. Yeah.
[00:59:34.00] - Bhavesh Naik
I heard somewhere, you know, it’s darkest before dawn. So maybe that’s what it is. I hope so.
[00:59:39.02] - Brenna Davis
Yes. I really hope so. I pray that that is true. Yes. Yeah.
[00:59:44.22] - Bhavesh Naik
Is there anything that I didn’t ask that we didn’t, you didn’t get to talk about, but that is very close to your heart and you would like to kind of share with the audience?
[00:59:52.21] - Brenna Davis
I think we’ve covered a lot and, um, yeah, I feel like I’ve I’ve shared, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation and yeah, now I feel great. Excellent.
[01:00:05.17] - Bhavesh Naik
Your book, how do we find it?
[01:00:08.22] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, the book is on Amazon, it’s on Barnes Noble, Apple Books. So it’s easy to find and it’s all over the place so you can pick one up. And I also made an audiobook because I really believe that. Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah, I really believe that, I got in this debate once at a dinner party where someone said that reading an audiobook isn’t the same as re reading a book. And I, um, I really am passionate about, um, people that have neurodiversity. And I know sometimes for those folks it’s easier to listen to a book. So I wanted to make sure that I provided access for them, but also busy, busy people. We like to listen to audiobooks in the car. So anyway, I made sure we had an audiobook. Um, and then if you’re interested in learning more about Organically Grown Company, You know, we have a website, organicgrown.com, and, you know, Perpetual Trust Ownership Network has a great website if you’re interested in the Pitons’ work. And then I have my own personal website, which is brennadavis.com. Okay. We’ll put all of those links in our show notes.
[01:01:16.19] - Bhavesh Naik
Okay, great. We put them, we have show notes section underneath, and we’ll put all those links so that folks can get hold of you. So, Brenna, I so appreciate this time we spent together. This was an exciting conversation and also very thoughtful, very deep conversation. And those are the kinds of things that we do on this podcast. So I really appreciate you thinking out loud with me. Thank you. On a lot of these issues that affect all of us. Thank you.
[01:01:42.23] - Brenna Davis
Yeah, I appreciate it too. And evidently my dog has joined us here.
[01:01:46.18] - Bhavesh Naik
So bring him or her over and let’s see. Say hello to the audience.
[01:01:51.23] - Brenna Davis
He is, he is my husband, but if I remember, he just left. Anyway, yes, I’ve really enjoyed it too. And I really want to say thank you for the work that you’re doing to try to illuminate these other business models and to support the leaders that are making this happen right now in the world. It’s so critical that they get the support and the new ideas and are exposed to different ways of working. So that future generations can thrive and so that they can thrive as human beings.
[01:02:22.02] - Bhavesh Naik
Absolutely. I think we come from the perspective that the best renewable resource we have is here and here. Yes. So it’s the head and the heart and center. So, you know, as long as we are tapping into that, you know, there’s always hope. So with that, thanks again. Thank you. We’ll continue this conversation in other ways.
[01:02:44.06] - Brenna Davis
Yes, yes, I would love to.
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Brenna can be reached through her website at https://www.brennadavis.com/ or through her Linkedin profile.
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